李山 Li Shan

D = Dado              L = Li Shan

MC：当你决定称自己为艺术家时，周围的人，如家人、朋友，如何看待这件事？
L：哎呀这是一个我要回忆遥远的一个年代了，我今年已经这个年龄，我走这条路的时候已经是……其实我高中二年级的时候，在这之前呢，我跟我最要好的朋友，同桌住也住在一起，因为我们俩住校嘛。我们俩每天在做数学题，做物理题。当时的理想是最低的一个大学就是哈尔滨工业大学。哈尔滨工业大学已经是很不错的学校，比较高一点的理想就是能进清华北大，所以那个时候我们读书非常努力，每天做习题。后来因为也许我的性格的原因，就跟班主任老师发生一点矛盾，那这种矛盾嘛其实现在看起来根本就没有什么，也就是一两句话之间的矛盾，于是我做出了一个激烈的反应，就是我不读了，我要休学一年。这可能是因为是孩子，这种事只有孩子才能做得出。休学一年我在家做什么呢，看小说。于是就改变了我一个志向，本来是学理工科的，我一看小说之后呢，毕业的时候第二年我又复习我就改了文科。改了文科之后，其实我回来之后还是这个班主任老师，改了文科之后我就考到黑龙江大学，后来感到这个学校左也不舒服右也不舒服，然后我就退学了。从黑龙江大学退学回来，第二年我考到上海戏剧学院，然后才选择这样一个专业。那整个这个过程当我从黑龙江大学退学回来的时候，我没有跟朋友、老师和家里人特别是父母商量过。当我从学校回到家的时候，我的母亲我理解她的心情，好久好久话都不说。我知道她很不舒服，很难过，因为考上大学又不读。所以当我走这条路的时候，我唯一感到对不起的，是我的母亲。但是我现在这个样子，我母亲已经离开人世了，我不晓得我现在这个样子会不会能够给我母亲在天之灵一个安慰，我不知道。这是我走这条路的一个故事。如果这个故事用一句话来说：我选择这条道路也只不过是高中两年级时候的跟班主任老师的两句话的摩擦改变了我一生。
MC: How did people around you react to your calling yourself an artist?
L: Well, I guess the answer to the question will have to be traced back to a long time ago，since I have already reached such an advanced age. When I made such a choice about 40 years ago, a lot of things happened. Actually, when I was a 11th grader, my friend, also my deskmate and roommate at that time, and I always did maths and physics exercises all day long. The lowest goal we set for ourselves was to enter Harbin Industrial University. Among the higher level universities that we wished to go to were Tsinghua University and Beijing University. So we worked really hard. Later, I had a conflict with my class teacher due to my personality. Looking back, the conflict just arose out of some improper words I said, and today it really seemed insignificant. But back then, my reaction was really strong and prompted me to make the decision of suspending my studies for one year. This sort of thing could really only happen with kids. That year, I did nothing else but read novels at home. And this inspired me to make the drastic transition from science to arts when I returned to school the next year. Actually my class teacher was still the same one who had the conflict with me before. Having switched to the arts stream, I later went to Heilongjiang University. I did not feel very accustomed to the university, so I dropped out. Again I took the college entrance examination and was accepted by Shanghai Theatre Academy, where I chose this major. After quitting Heilongjiang University, I didn’t consult anyone on what I should do. The whole decision was made by myself. When I first quitted school and went back home, my mother was extremely sad and remained silent for a long time. I felt I owed her something when I chose to pursue art. She was the only person who made me feel this way. Now that she is long gone, I hope she would be proud of what I have turned out to be. But I’m not sure about that. This is the story about how I became an artist. To make it short, my choosing to be an artist is all because of the  friction with my class teacher in senior high school. That really changed my life.

MC：在你的职业生涯中，何时觉得很特别，很不一样，何时又觉得很沮丧？为什么？
L：哎呀我沮丧的事太多了，你知道我们是文革之前入校的。整个文化大革命的开始是从文学艺术开始的。开始之后呢，当时我们虽然没有毕业，但是我们已经好多人，当然不止我一个人，好多人，都准备改行了，不想学艺术了。我刚刚谈到和我一起做习题的同学，他后来考上哈尔滨工业大学，哈尔滨工业大学毕业后他分在重庆的一个工厂里，做技术员。在我临毕业之前，我写信给他，我说我不想搞艺术了。他说你想干什么？我说我想到你们工厂里面来。他说你来做什么？我说帮你们出黑板报啊。那这样的一个故事说明我从事艺术工作确实很沮丧。后来当然故事更多。沮丧也许是没完没了。包括现在我也沮丧，沮丧得到不是别的，我对我自己感到沮丧。
D：为什么呢？
L：因为……我想做的事情一下还做不出，还有很多困难。这种困难来自于两方面，一个是我自己的问题，我的认识，我的想象力。还一个问题就是在具体做的时候，在技术上我可能一下子解决不了。我可能必须要跟科学家合作，但是我找一个跟我合作的科学家何其之难。所以当我遇到这些问题的时候，当我选择这个艺术一直到今天沮丧的事情太多了。
D：那你什么时候觉得不一样，或者是怎么理解不一样？
L：我觉得从根本意义上来讲，没什么可不一样的。比如说我们在谈科学家，科学家探索这个世界，探索这个人本身。其实今天的艺术家也在探索，探索一些问题，当然更多的探索是人生的问题。那我在探索人的问题和生物的问题，从这个意义上来讲也没什么不一样的。只不过有的时候我在想这个问题，是不是我们艺术家有意把自己做成不一样？譬如说上海的艺术家很讨厌北京的痞子，说他们是痞子；北京的痞子也很讨厌上海的艺术家，说上海的艺术家是资产阶级，小市民。当我此时此刻和你谈这个问题的时候我感到，你应该是什么就是什么，是痞子就是痞子，粗声粗气的讲话，讲些下流话，动作不规范，粗手粗脚，把凳子踢翻也不要紧，本身就是这样的人。作为资产阶级，如果你本身就有资产阶级的情调，贵族气质，讲话文雅，衣着整齐，也没关系。这些都没关系，这是很真实的。令我感到受不了的是假痞子，假资产阶级，我就感到受不了。我为什么提到这东西，就是说你在谈到不一样的时候，我就在说不一样的也许就是艺术家在做假。用塑料制品来塑造自己，气味是喷出来的，不是本身的气味，不是本身是木头做的，还是铜做的，还是铁做的，还是用土做成的。完全是塑料的。塑料对于我来说是受不了的，我不知道对别人来讲怎么样。就像我看一个雕塑作品，我不喜欢看。。。。你知道的，我真的不喜欢。这个作品样式很好，但是我就是喜欢不起来，因为他说是玻璃钢做的。如果说艺术家跟人不一样的话可能就是艺术家喜欢作假。或者是一般人所比喻的是塑料花，香味是喷的香水。一个塑料玫瑰。如果说不一样，可能是在这一点不一样。但是我不赞成这种不一样。我很讨厌塑料，我讨厌非自然物质的东西。
MC: During your career, when did you feel special, different, frustrated - and why?
L: Let me see. Well, I had a whole list of frustrating experiences in my life. You know we went to university before the Cultural Revolution. The revolution really started with art and literature. At least that was what they said. After the revolution started, many of us were ready to switch careers despite the fact that we hadn’t graduated yet. We just didn’t want to study art anymore. The friend I mentioned earlier was accepted by Harbin Industrial University and, after graduation, was assigned a technician’s post in a factory in Chongqing. I wrote him a letter right before graduation and told him that I didn’t want to be an artist anymore. He asked me, “What do you want to do, then?” “I would like to work in your factory,” I said. “What can you possibly do in our factory?” he asked. I said, “I can compile the black-board newspaper for your factory.” This just showed how depressed I was at that time, working in the field of art. And that was followed by an endless list of frustrating experiences. Even today, I am still depressed, not because of any external factors, but because of myself.
D: Why?
L: Because many of the things I would like to do could not be realized due to lots of obstacles. There are currently two major obstacles I am faced with, my limited understanding and imagination and some technological issues in practice. I may have to collaborate with scientists. But finding such a scientist could prove extremely difficult. So I’ll have to say that, from the beginning of my career up till now, I have come across too many frustrations.
D: Then, when did you feel special? And what is your understanding of being special? Or to put it another way, in what ways do you feel different as an artist?
L: You mean “Is there a difference between me and others?”
D: Yes, right.
L: Well, in my mind, basically, there is no difference. Let me take the scientist again as an example. Scientists are constantly exploring the world and mankind. Just like them, today’s artists are also exploring something, focusing, of course, more on the issues of human life. And I, with no exception, am also looking into such things. So in this sense, there is no difference. Sometimes I ask myself if some artists try to make themselves seem different on purpose. For example, artists in Shanghai don’t like the artists in Beijing, so they call them “pizi”, or rascals. The artists in Beijing also dislike Shanghai artists, calling them the petty bourgeoisie. But I feel you should be who you really are. If you are a rascal, you are a rascal, always using vulgar language, behaving in an improper manner, knocking over chairs, all of which are okay for a rascal. If you are a petty bourgeoisie, it’s fine for you to have a little bourgeois sentiment and a noble temperament, to talk in a more refined manner, and to dress neatly. Both are acceptable to me because they are real. What really make me uncomfortable are those fake rascals or fake petty bourgeoisie. I really cannot stand them. I talk about this issue just to tell you that if there does exist something different about artists, it must be the fact that some artists are faking things. They shape themselves with plastic; they have a smell that is sprayed on, not the smell they are born with. They are made of sheer plastic, not copper, iron, wood, or soil. I don’t know what others think of plastic, but I simply cannot stand it. Take sculptures for instance, I never have a liking for those using fiber glass as materials, even if they have good styles. This just shows if some artists are in anyway different, it must be because they like to fake. Or we can simply, like many people do, compare these artists to plastic flowers, plastic roses for instance, with their fragrance sprayed on. This may really be the only difference. But I, personally, do not appreciate such a difference. I hate plastic, or anything unnatural.

MC：你认为艺术对社会最大的贡献是什么？
L：启发人们的想象力。这个社会需要想象力，没有想象力我们这个社会就完蛋了。
MC: What is the most important contribution of art to social life / society?
L: Inspiring people’s imagination. Our society is in urgent need of imagination, without which it is doomed.

MC：你觉得自己作为一个艺术家，对社会及文化负有责任吗？是怎样的一种责任感？
L：以前有，正因为有责任，所以画不好画。负担太重吧，责任太重，我们以前都是这样。在那个文革时期文革之前或者是文革之后刚刚开放的时候，比如说我们那个北京中国现代艺术展，那种负担那种责任感啊……因为有这种责任，所以我们的作品很不好。当我们去掉这些责任的时候，我们的作品很好。我们的作品不是人的责任，而是作品的责任，有好的作品的时候就是对社会负责任。
MC: As an artist, do you feel you have responsibility in a social and cultural context? In what ways?
L: Well, I used to have a strong sense of responsibility before. And because of this sense of responsibility, it was difficult for me to paint well. The responsibility was too heavy on our shoulders, and it was the same for all of us. You know, before and after the cultural revolution, and at the beginning of the opening up of the country, there were art exhibitions, like the Exhibition of Chinese Modern Art in Beijing, which really gave us a burden so heavy it was beyond description. Our works were tarnished by such kind of responsibilities. When we were freed from such restraints, we created good artworks. An artist’s responsibility is not towards other human beings, but towards the artwork itself. If you create good works, then you are already responsible to society.

MC：有没有对自己的艺术家身份产生过怀疑？
L：其实我有。我再想一下，应该有。譬如说我在做的事情，这是艺术还是不是艺术，我是在怀疑。譬如说我要把我那几个作品变成鲜活的东西，我就在怀疑这是作品吗？还是生物科学家们所做的事情？但是这些东西如果他是艺术的话，是因为人家把我界定为艺术家，如果没有把我界定为艺术家，这些东西可能就不是艺术。
MC: Have you ever been doubtful of your identity as an artist?
L: Yes, I have. Let me think… I think I should have. For example, I will question myself whether what I am creating is art or not art. It all depends. When I try to turn some of my works into living things, I always wonder if it will still be artworks, or just something created by a biologist. The things I design are called art because I am defined as an artist, so if I am not an artist, they may not be viewed as art at all.

MC：你认为一个有艺术创作力的人必须具有精神支柱吗？你有精神支柱吗？
L：好像不见得这样。我觉得创作力的来源在于他对周围环境，对世界，对问题，对人本身他在思考。由于深入的思考，他对问题的认识程度可能不一样。然后艺术家还有一种灵感。为什么说灵感那个点，那是艺术家在思考的那个点。(What does this mean???)我一直在思考这个问题，当环境，当大豆跟我讲一句话，你向我提一个问题，或周边发生一个什么样的故事的话，刚好跟我的思考有一种关系，然后才产生。(What on earth is he talking about???)
D：但是这种关系也不能说这是精神支柱的一种东西。
L：是啊，这种东西好像不是精神支柱。
D：你觉得不是吗？
L：我觉得很难讲是精神支柱。
D：这个精神支柱跟宗教没有关系，不一定是跟宗教有关的。
L：如果说精神支柱可能是我有一个理想的东西，艺术家都有自己的理想，当然一般的人都有自己的理想。
D：你觉得一个有创作力的人他需要。。。
L：他可能成为创作的动力之一，有可能。
D：但是有没有必要？
L：再实际一点这是人们的一种愿望。如果一个艺术家连愿望都没有的话，我想可能不一定成为很优秀的艺术家。他需要有一种愿望。
MC: Do you find it necessary that a creative / artistic person have a belief? What do you believe in?
L: I don’t think so. I think one’s creativity comes from his consideration of his surroundings, the world at large, different problems and mankind. He is thinking about a lot things. Because of the depth of this thinking, he may have a different level of understanding for different issues. Also, artists have inspirations. We focus on inspiration because it is what artists think about. (The Chinese itself is unclear. Not sure what he meant.) I have always been thinking about this: when Dadou says something to me, when you raise a question, or when something occurs around me, it happens to have some relationship with my thoughts, thus comes what I would like to create. (Really not sure what he meant!!!)
D: But you probably cannot call such a relationship spiritual support.
L: Right. Such things don’t seem like spiritual support.
D: Don’t you think so?
L: I think it’s hard to categorize them as spiritual support.
D: Well, spiritual support doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with religion. It is not always connected with religion.
L: It could be something related to ideal. If so, each artist has ideals and so does everyone.
D: Then how do you think a creative person will achieve his ideal?
L: It may become one of the driving forces behind the creation.
D: But is it necessary for a creative person to possess such ideals?
L: Such an ideal is, more practically, a wish. An artist who doesn’t even have a wish won’t turn out to be a good artist. He needs to have such a wish.

MC：你认为人们应该理解你的艺术作品吗？你的艺术需要别人理解吗？
L：我不去想这些问题。因为我的作品始终是很多人都不理解。为什么呢，就像一个哲学家一样，一个哲学家有一种新的哲学思想，要人们都去理解都去认识是不可能的。也许过了一百年、两百年，人们才认识到，才能够理解。所以我创作作品，我不思考这些东西，我把这些问题全排除掉。
MC: Do you think that people should understand your art? Do you need people to understand your art?
L: I never thought about such things. Many people do not understand my art now. When a philosopher comes up with some new philosophic thinking, it is impossible to make everyone understand or get to know it. It may take 100 or 200 years for people to really know about and understand his philosophic thinking. Hence I never think about stuff like this when I create. I take all these questions off my mind.

MC：你现在还看书吗？你认为阅读对于艺术家来说是不是很重要？
L：我现在看一些书，但最近一段时间我在看教材，看生物学教材。
D：那你觉得看书对艺术家和艺术有好处吗?
L：有时候有好处，有时候一点好处都没有。真的一点好处都没有，所以信息知识过量肯定没有任何好处。
D: 信息过量？
L: 是的。肯定是一种干扰。就是你会离开自己，你会离开你的方向，你的愿望会被打消。因为知识多，知识多肯定是一种干扰。那我为什么喜欢看教材啊，因为教材它和书不一样，一本书有一个作者，有一个思想，这个思想他要给你，你看书你要接受他的思想，不接受也等于白看。但教材提供的是一个很广阔的空间，它提供的是试验，让你去试验，他没有结论。他提供试验条件，试验空间，然后它告诉你一种方法，你按照这种方法去试验，试验结果怎么样是个未知的。这个我从这里获得好多思想。
MC: Do you still keep reading now? Is reading important for an artist?
L: Yes, I do read some books. But recently, I switched to reading biological textbooks.
D: Then do you think reading is good for art and artists?
L: Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. I’m telling you, sometimes, it can do no good at all. Too much information and knowledge is not good.
D: Too much information?
L: Yes, too much information is definitely a kind of interference. It can make you turn away from who you really are, distract you from your direction, and dispel your wishes. There is no question that too much knowledge is interference. I read textbooks because they are different from books in general. Every book is written by its author and the author has certain thoughts he wants to pass on to you. If you read the book, you will have to accept the author’s thought, otherwise you just read for nothing. But a textbook will offer you an immensely open space. It prompts you to experiment, and does not give you a conclusion. It provides you with the condition as well as the room required for such experiments. It instructs you to undertake the experiments in a certain way, and the result is unknown. I have learned a lot from the textbooks.

MC：你对艺术和恐惧有什么意见？
L：恐惧的含义你解释一下。
D：要看你怎么理解啊，就是说这种关系。你听这样的一种关系，你觉得有还是没有，或者是你怎么理解这种关系。你当艺术家的情况下，你觉得恐惧在哪里有？你觉得这个恐惧是不是存在？或者说对你的作品有影响吗？
L：存在。应该说是对我的早期作品有影响的，我怎么对待这个东西，我回避呢？还是战胜他呢？还是以一种特别的关系来对待它。我一直在考虑这样的一个问题。
MC: Have you anything to say about art and fear?
L: Please explain the definition of fear.
D: It depends on how you understand the relation between them two. Let me see…… well, focus on the relation, do you think there exists such a relation between art and fear, and what do you think of such a relation? Based on the fact that you are an artist, where do you think your fear comes from? You can try to comment on the relation from all these different angles. Do you think such a relation exists and does it have an influence on you artistic creation.
L: I think it does have an influence on my artworks , especially those earlier ones. How do I deal with such things? Should I avoid them or conquer them? Or should I handle them strategically?
Those are some of things I have been considering all the time.
D: For some of the questions, you can just try to tell us what you feel because they are really too abstract.
L: O.K. I see.

MC：艺术家是否是会腐败的人？你会腐败吗？
L：会，百分之百的会。
D：艺术家的腐败跟其他人腐败一样吗？
L：可能不一样。职业关系可能不一样。但是他们绝对可以称为腐败分子。
D：比方说？
L：比如说一叠钱放在这，我就为这叠钱花花，那不是腐败吗。
MC: Is an artist corruptible? / Are you corruptible?
L: Yes, I will, 100%.
D: But, you know, the corruption of an artist is different from that of others.
L: Perhaps it is different because of job-related reasons. But artists definitely have the potential to be corruptible.
D: You are telling me that artists can easily be corruptible.
L: Exactly. For example, if there were a pile of money here, I would draw a picture for it. Is that not corruption?

MC：艺术家是不是很有权力的人？你希望拥有很多权力吗？
L：我的权力完全在我的创作过程当中。我有权力这样，我有权利那样。其他我没有任何权力。
MC：也没有这个权力的欲望。
L：没有这个欲望。我的权力欲望全部在我的作品里面。我对我的作品施加了极大的欲望。或者是使用了绝对权力。
MC: Is an artist powerful? Do you like to be so?
L: My power lies entirely in the process of creation. I have to power to create this or that, but I have claim to no other power.
D: Neither do you have the desire to own the power?
L: No, absolutely not.
D: All my power and desire are trapped in my works. I have put a lot of desire in my art and have used absolute power.

MC：你怎样处理艺术评论家和他们对你的作品的意见与看法？
L：我从来不理睬他们如何评论的。
D：是他们的水平不够好还是你不要看？
L：至少我们这里的评论家或者我接触的评论家他们是怎么样评论作品的。哎我写书了，我评论你的作品，你把简历寄来，图片我这里有了。他们的这种工作方式其实跟我一点关系都没有。然后我作品问世之后，他们怎么评价我从来不去理睬。
D：因为你觉得他们……
L：不可能深入，不会深入的了解我的思想，我有多少故事，我的恐惧感是什么，我的愿望理想，我是怎么样走这条路的，我的作品要叙述些什么，他们从来不问这些问题，一张图片就可以了。所以他们的评论就是在了解我，因为了解的角度不一样，有的是这个方面，有的是另外的方面，我也不去管。不管做什么评价。
D：那你希望他们的水平要怎么样才可以变成一个好的批评家？
L：现在的批评家应该不要屈从于权势，不要为一叠钱而评论，也不要大豆我们是哥们儿而评论。
D：那你觉得有很多人说批评家就变成一个写文章的，但是不做批评了，你赞成吗？
L：真正达到批评的很少。只是文章，文章就是大家是哥们儿。好你的画不错，你的画可以卖了，卖的价钱高一点。而且现在批评家都在跟画廊合作了，我感到很悲哀。
D：。。。。
L：没有一个独立人格和独立思考。没有作为一个批评家真正的责任。完全是为了一叠钱而吹捧，为了哥们儿而吹捧，为了各种各样的利益而吹捧。还有好多圈子，我这个圈子有我这个评论家，你那个圈子有你的，我地区有我地区的评论家，北京有北京的评论家，四川有四川的。就变成这种样子了，一个个圈子群体。圈子群体为什么成为一个群体那是一个利益关系，一个利益圈子。
MC: How do you deal with critics and criticism of your work?
L: I have never paid attention to any of their criticism.
D: Why? Are they not qualified, or you just don’t want to listen to their words.
L: Do you know how those critics who I am acquainted with comment on art? They simply asked for a picture of the artwork. The way they work has nothing to do with me. How they judge my works is none of my business.
D: Because you think the way they judge is……
L: They are not able to see into who I am , what’s my thought, my stories, my fear, my wish and ideal, how I started my career, and what I want to tell others through my works. They never care about such things, and one picture is enough for their comment. Even if those who do know me, they will have different angles of understanding, so I do not care about any of that.
D: Then, could tell me what kind of comment you would like , how qualified you require them to be and what’s the comment like if it is to be helpful to your work.
L: I think current critics should not subject themselves to privilege and authority. Nor should they make comments for money or for relationship.
D: Some people say that critics are simply writing articles instead of making comments. What do you think of that?
L: Only few of the articles can be called criticism. The critics are just writing articles. So long as the article is good enough, it can sell for a good price. Besides, many critics are collaborating with art galleries. This is something very deplorable. I feel very sad to learn that critics are collaborating with art galleries.
D: Li Shan , I have come up with a question based on what you said. In china, people like me are doing such jobs, so we know little of the things you’ve said. This is their ability to comment. These works have all turned into careers. But there’s no such a career…… As you said a moment ago, the critics and art galleries together have formed a system. So can you say something on the basis of cultural environment.
L: Those critics do not have independent personalities and thinking, nor have they lived up to the responsibilities of critics. Their responsibility is to point out those problems. They are not pointing out problems, but puffing up , for money, friends, and various benefits. There are also many different circles, regions to which certain critics belong. Beijing has its own critics, so does Sichuan. So you just see a lot of circles and groups, and they come into being because of interest.

MC：艺术需要忠诚吗？而且是永远的忠诚。
L：需要对自己忠诚。对作品忠诚。如果我在作品里面有弄虚作假，那能行吗？三心二意也不行。必须全部的为它付出。
MC: Dose art need loyalty? And is it a never ending need?
L: It requires us to be loyal to artworks, without doubt. If I just fake something when doing creation, that won’t work at all. Nor should someone be distracted. He will have to fling himself into his work body and soul.

MC：你认为艺术和道德标准之间的关系是什么？
L：有些道德败坏分子也可以成为很好的大艺术家，在这里我在想那个……我觉得道德和艺术可能没关系。对于一些人来讲可能有关系，一个道德良好的人可以成为一个很好的艺术家。但对于另外一些人来讲可能道德水准并不怎么样，但他可能是个很好的艺术家。
D：那你对你自己的艺术……
L：我很难说我是一个道德标准很好的人，我无法评价自己的道德标准，这个需要别人来评价。
D：但是你觉得艺术家可以创造自己的道德标准吗？
L：也可以，但这个道德标准往往社会不允许的。因为他在我们的游戏之外。比如说有一个艺术家在吃孩子，在吃一个尸体，那么他在创作它的一个道德标准，他认为没什么。因为道德标准和社会规范也是人自己制作的。那么可不可以改变呢？艺术家有这个愿望，愿意改变这个标准。但是这个标准社会什么时候接受那是另外一回事情。比如吃小孩尸体，艺术家有艺术家自己的道德，我们社会有社会的道德。
D：那是一个道德还是一个概念？
L：如果说作为一个概念来讲没有什么，但是问题是艺术家是作为一个概念。当把他的作品放在社会上的时候，就是说人们往往用道德标准去要求它。这本身是个矛盾的东西。所有作品都是这样的，对人本身啊，对尸体啊等等都是这样一个问题。所以说你刚刚提到画家所遇到的困境，艺术家所遇到的困境，或者艺术恐惧我想也是对于那个艺术家来讲这样的一个社会道德下，在这样的一个框架下，这样的一个游戏规则下，他肯定很恐惧。
MC: How do you see the relationship between Art and Ethics?
L: People with no ethics can be great artists.
D: Well, this, too, is a very broad question. So you can just……
L: I think ethics is not related to art. For some people, art and ethics may be connected. Someone with virtue may well become an artist. Others who are not virtuous can still be great artists.
D: Then what about you?
L: I can not call myself an ethical artist because I have no principles of morality to measure myself up to. This is a job for others.
D: But you do have the capacity to create your own principles of morality.
L: Yes. I can work out my own principles, but, more often than not, they are not acceptable to the public. The general society does not understand the rules of the game for artists. One artist ate his own child. In this way, he created his own ethic. And he is o.k. with all that. Principles of morality and rules of conduct are actually are created by mankind itself. Can they be altered? Artists have a wish to change them. But it is quite another issue as to when the society will accept the principles created by artists. For example, certain artists have an ethic on eating kids, and the society has its own as well.
D: So ethic here is just a concept.
L: If you take ethic as a concept, then there’s no problem at all. Yes, it is a concept. But when you put an artwork in society, people always judge it with moral standards. It is quite contradicting. All artworks face the same problem. As you mentioned earlier about the difficulties artists and painters bump into, I would like tell you that all artists will be confronted with fears under such principles of morality, such social framework and rules of game. Don’t you think so?

MC作一个艺术家你认为什么是“风度”？
L：风度应该在他的创作上面。这个人做艺术家的风度，比如说北京痞子，我觉得挺好，上海资产阶级也挺好，这是一般常规意义上的一种所谓的人际交往过程中的一种风度。我想风度作为艺术家来讲还不止这一些。至于什么样的风度，风度有高雅的风度，也有低俗的风度，有丑陋的也有美好的，你问的是什么？是不是术家应该有什么样的风度？
MC：对，作为一个艺术家要不要有风度？
L：有风度可以。我希望的不应该是装腔作势，因为风度里面有好多事装腔作势的成分。尤其是高雅风度，几乎很大成分是装腔作势，我讨厌装腔作势。
MC: Is “Decency” of concern for an artist?
L: Manner should be reflected in creation. As to the manner of people and artists…… I think rascals in Beijing and bourgeoises in Shanghai all have good manner. Such kind of manner is manner in terms of general sense or intercommunication. Artists have a sort of manner which goes beyond that. As to the nature of manner, it can be elegant, base, ugly, or beautiful. It can be different. What is that you want to ask me? Do you mean what kind of manner artist should have?
D: Right, what kind of manner and is it necessary?
L：Well, the manner I want is genuine. Many types of manner are not real, especially the elegant one. It is fake to a great extent. I hate fakeness.

MC：艺术会不会引发争议？你认为艺术应该引发争议吗？
L：应该。艺术没有争议那还叫艺术吗？那什么都不是了。艺术没有争议，像手机一样的，像个扫把一样的，大家都可以使用，完全都是正常的，像一个椅子一样的，那还叫艺术吗？一定要有争议。
MC: Does Art open conflicts? Should it do so?
L: Yes, of course. Art without conflict cannot be called art. If art does not open conflicts, it’s just like a cellphone, a broom, or a chair, which can be used by anyone. So art has to open conflicts, and it needs conflicts.
D: All right.

MC：你认为艺术史与思想史之间是怎样的关系？艺术史是不等同思想史？
L：那就看我们现在是谈什么，现在的艺术是观念性很强的东西，认识成分很多。以前的艺术是一种愉悦，一直视觉上的。现在的艺术发展，艺术创作已经不是那个时代了。它是对问题的一种认识，是一种阐释。所以当艺术进入到这个阶段时，它和思想史是紧密相关的。
D：那你觉得艺术史和思想史是相似的吗？
L：至少是有很密切的关系，因为我们现在谈艺术肯定不单单是谈视觉形式，不单单谈语言，是谈语言背后所讲述的故事。
MC: What is the relationship between Art History and Ideology History? Is Art History equivalent to Ideology History?
L: That depends on what we are going to talk about. Art today is quite ideogenetic. It involves a lot of cognition. Art in the past was something visually pleasant, but it has developed a lot since then.
It is perception and elucidation of problems. Art has entered a stage where it relates closely to the history of ideas.
D: Then do you think art is the same as the history of ideas?
L: At least they are closely related. When we talk about art today, we won’t just talk about it in terms of vision or language, instead, we are more focused on what’s behind the vision.

MC：你认为艺术和文化之间的关系是什么？
L：文化是一个很大的概念，包含的太多了。艺术只是作为里面的一个样式存在。
D：那么怎样的一个关系？或者说艺术走在文化的前面一点？
L：它可能作为一个文化，艺术作品和艺术家它肯定是作为一个带有开拓性的，创作性极强的一个职业。我有时候把艺术家和科学家相提并论。
D：那你觉得文化艺术的关系应该怎么样？
L：艺术应该是先锋。
MC: What is the relationship between Art and Culture?
L: Culture is a broad concept. It includes a lot. Art is just a small fraction of it.
D: Then what is the relation between the two? Is art ahead of culture?
L: Art is a major part of culture. Artists as well as people working in the field of art are taking the lead. Sometimes I compare artists with scientists.
D: Then what’s their relation?
L: Art is at the forefront of culture, serving as a shock worker and reconnaissance platoon. After mankind started its culture reconstruction, artists are the ones to break through the restraining culture framework..

MC：你认为艺术和政治之间的关系应该是怎样的？
L：艺术和政治没有什么大的区别，有什么样的政治就有什么样的艺术。那或者反过来有什么样的艺术就应该有什么政治。因为一个艺术样式跟政治没有什么区别。我们从历史上也看到，文化大革命的时期就是有它的艺术样式啊，有他的文革时期的语言。不可能不这样，现在也应该是这样。那我们再把历史往前推，文革之前我们的艺术样式。文革时期的艺术样式，解放之前的艺术样式。西方也是这样。
MC: What and how should the relationship between Art and Politics be?
L: Art is no different from politics. Sometimes politics decides art and vice verse. An art pattern is really similar to politics. Looking back on history, culture revolution has its own art pattern and its singular art language. It must be so, and it should be so now. If we go back in history, we can see an art pattern before culture revolution, during culture revolution, and before emancipation. It’s the same with western countries.

MC：你会资助需要支持的艺术家吗？只是赞助他们吗？
L：会。他们需要，应该是这样。
D：你怎么资助他们呢，也不一定是钱的问题，但是你觉得艺术家应该……
L：他需要跟我聊天，需要认识好多问题，需要探讨好多问题，我会探讨。当然经济上如果有困难我也会……
D：概念上的？
L：对，问题就在这里。如果说他的概念很有意思，很值得我们讨论，很值得需要艺术家共同来实现他的概念，那当然我是应该支持他的了。
MC: Would you like to use your money to support young artists? Just to sponsor them?
L: Of course. They need such financial support.
D: How do you do that? It doesn’t have to be financial support. Just tell me how you will help them.
L: They need to talk with me , realize some problems, and discuss some problems. But if they lack money, I certainly will give them a hand. I think this is……
D: What about in the sense of concept?
L: Yeah, the key here is concept. If his notion is very interesting, good enough to be shared and pursued by other artists, of course I will sponsor him.

MC：你怎样为你的作品定价？你怎样评估它们的价值？
L：每个艺术家都以为自己的作品是很好的，我也这样为的。为什么呢？当我的作品不成熟的时候，我认为我的作品是最好的。我当下做的作品，当我过十年回头看也是不成熟的，但我始终认为是最好的。最好的作品值多少钱那是收藏家和画廊的事情了。
D：这你就不管了？
L：我不会管了。
MC: How do you arrive at a price for your art? And how do you value your work?
L: Every artist considers his work excellent. I think so too. The reason for this is that when my artwork is immature, I think it’s the best. Ten years from now, when I look back on the artwork I make today, it still seems immature, yet the best. And the question of how much the work is worth is left to those collectors and art galleries. It’s none of my concern.

MC：你的作品是一种产品吗？
L：产品是工业概念农业概念还是个艺术概念？如果说是艺术概念的话，那当然本身每件作品都是产品，如果从工业或农业的概念来说，那就可能成为大批的的东西了，大批的东西就不是艺术作品了。
MC: Is your art a product?
L: Are my artworks products? By products, you mean industrial products, agricultural products or art products? If you mean art products, of course, all of my works are products. But if you look at this from an industrial or agricultural perspective, they are not artworks because they are manufactured.

MC：艺术是大规模生产的产品吗？它应该成为大规模生产吗？
L：至少在现在这个时代，我们观念还不怎么接受的时候，它不能。将来也许是。因为我们不能够确定将来。将来如果这个社会说把艺术作品不应该是艺术家独立的、个人的或带有手工的、半手工的，不能成为你个人的私人产品。你艺术家提供的只是一个概念，一个制作方案。然后我们有这样的一个生产机构，来进行大批生产。现在还不是那个时候，将来我相信也会有那个时代。
MC: Is art a mass product? Should it be?
L: In our age, this may not be acceptable, but it will be some day, because we can not predict the future. Maybe in the future, artworks are no longer independent, personal, handmade, or half handmade works owned by artists. The artists just need to provide a concept or a manufacturing plan, and the rest of work will be done by some specialized organizations. Although it can not be done today, it is possible in the future.

MC：你认为策划人是为艺术家服务还是利用艺术家的人？
L：现在都在利用艺术家。策展人自己跑到舞台中心在唱戏，艺术家都在台下喝彩。然后大家看这个展览的时候，不是说我看这个艺术家有什么作品，啊谁是策展人，提出什么议题。谁是策展人，提出什么议题，这不是艺术家，这是策展人。
D：那你觉得要变成比较有用的策展人，应该是和艺术家的关系怎么样？
L：他们应该是共同、平等的，如果说要唱戏大家一道来唱，跑到舞台中心一起来。因为是一个共同的事。因为有些艺术家是很分散的状态，需要一个策划人来策划展览。但这个展览必须是有意义的，不像我们现在搞的那种双年展、单年展、三年展……我可以说现在在整个地球上每天都可以在某个角落发生过双年展、单年展、三年展……它是个品牌，只要是品牌就有人去模仿去冒充去假冒……然后就成为一个品牌，最后变成一个伪劣产品，因为去复制嘛。没有议题怎么办呢，本来一个双年展是思考人类前沿的一个问题，这个社会走到这一步，我们思想家或知识精英在思考一个什么问题，是一个很前沿的很有意义的问题。现在已经提不出来这样的，那么多策展，那么多展览怎么会有那么多议题提出来。于是把一个很有意义的双年展变成一个艺术种类的展览，比如说建筑啊，设计啊；变成一个地方性的，比方说上海海上啊；变成一个物质性的什么东西；或者语言上的一个什么东西，比如说录像啊、装置啊、平面啊已经变成了这样的一个双年展。多么令人可悲啊，多么令人受不了啊。艺术家应该联合起来抵制，我们应该重新思考这些问题，来一次造反，把它推翻掉。
D：。。。就是提一下，怎么可以就。。。但是没有这种基本的。。。一般的话。。。
L：一个策展人一年做十几个展览，艺术家应该联合起来造反，应该把它推翻掉，或者把双年展取消掉。不应该搞双年展啦，不应该再搞三年展啦……
MC: Is a curator a facilitator or an artist-user?
L: At the moment, all of them are using artists. Most of the exhibition planners are performing on the stage, while artists are doing their work off the stage. When people go to an exhibition, they are not going there to appreciate the artworks. Instead, they are more concerned about who is the planner of the exhibition and what’s the issue he proposes. The exhibition is no held for artists but for the planners.
D: Then, what do you think the relationship between them should be?
L: They should both perform on the stage.
D: Do you think we need such planners?
L: Yes, we do. Many artists are scattered, and we need someone to gather them together. But the exhibition must be meaningful, not like those annual, biannual, and triannual exhibitions we hold nowadays. I can tell you that every day, a biannual, annual, or triannual exhibition is being held on the planet. It’s a brand. So long as it’s a brand, there will be someone to imitate it. Eventually, it will turn into a symbol of bad products. The biannual exhibition is initially intended for consideration of mankind’s frontier issues: what the ideologists, the leading brains are thinking about at this stage of the society. Those are meaningful issues at the forefront. But no such issues are ever heard nowadays. So many meaningless issues are brought forth in these biannual exhibitions, turning them into exhibitions displaying the variety of art, like architecture and design; into regional exhibitions, like shanghai exhibitions; into material exhibitions; or into media exhibitions, like video, equipment and graph. How deplorable and intolerable! Artists should make an alliance against this. We should reconsider these issues. We should rebel and overthrow it.
D: It’s just an initial idea. Maybe you should bring it forward.
L: Yeah, we artists should unite together to protest against it. It’s not right. It should be overthrown or called off, no such things should be held anymore.

MC：你认为艺术和奢侈品之间的关系是怎样的？
L：艺术本身确实是很奢侈的。早一点中世纪艺术是为宗教服务的，所谓奢侈就是到了荷兰那些小油画的时候，他们坐在家里开始欣赏，然后开始奢侈。一直到马蒂斯那大家哎呀愉悦啊……
D：中国对艺术的理解是不是有奢侈品的……
L：还没有达到这种水平，现在的收藏家们或者买画的人们把它们当股票。
D：这个我们都知道，但是以前的呢，中国以前传统的……
L：传统那是很奢侈，都是那些很有钱的人、知识精英，很奢侈、非常奢侈，这种奢侈的程度远远超过西方。太奢侈了，无比的奢侈。然后一卷画放到袖口里面，然后拿出来看看吧他还舍不得，看你这个画不好，我还不给你看，因为我这个比你那个好。要自我享受，非常奢侈。
D：那现在呢？
L：现在当股票了，现在没有奢侈感。就是说以前那几个资产阶级的贵族们是真的，现在是假的，他们没有这个能力奢侈。他们体会不到一张好画带给他们的愉悦。他们的眼光他们的审美已经没能力奢侈了。想要奢侈，但是没有能力。
MC: Luxury and Art, Art and Luxury? What do you think about this relationship?
L: Art itself is luxurious. In medieval times, art was used to serve religion. Art as a luxury was best represented by those Dutch painters sitting at home, enjoy their own paintings. Until the times of Martins, people were all hilarious.
D: What about the tradition in china and how does china see this?
L: Well, the perception of the Chinese has not reached such a level. Many of the current collectors and buyers consider their artworks stock shares.
D: Yes, we all know that. What about before?
L: Right, in the past, art was luxury. Those rich people and elites in academia would open a scroll of painting, sip some tea and enjoy it. That was really sumptuous. Such luxury far outreached that in western world. It is luxurious to an infinite extent. Those rich people would put the paintings in their sleeves and withheld it from others so that they could enjoy it all by themselves.
D: Now…….
L: Now the rich ones in china take artworks as stock shares. There is no sense of luxury now. The capitalistic nobles, landowners and magnates in the past were really luxurious. Nowadays, those who call themselves noble, landowners and magnates are really far from being able to enjoy luxury. They cannot really enjoy the pleasure that luxury brings them. Their taste and ability to appreciate art fail to enable them to be luxurious.
D: So, let’s move on. What’s your opinion on those questions?
L: Are you having a good time talking to me?
D: Yeah, I do.
L: Me too. It’s also a kind of luxury. And I am telling you what I really think.
D: And I feel comfortable talking to you.
L: At the moment , we are not luxurious. But we are developing the ability to enjoy luxury. Hahahhh
D: I think so. And such things are needed in the society, otherwise it will be too plain and dull.
L: Right. The commercial tide has greatly damaged the art circles.

MC：你认为艺术家和画廊老板的关系应该是怎样的？
L：应该是合作的，大家有好的合作。就是画廊老板应该让艺术家享有创作的充分自由。艺术家应该对画廊负责，给它好的作品。这里最基本的一点就是诚信，互信。
MC: How do you believe the relationship with gallerists and artists should be?
L: It should be a relationshipt of collaboration. Gallerists should give artists freedom in terms of creation, while artists working for a certain gallery should be responsible and provide it with good artworks, not just making creations in a rough and slipshod way for money. The key to this relationship is trust. The two sides should trust each other,

MC：你认为和画廊老板分摊你的经济收入是合理的?
L：现在不是对开嘛……哈哈。这个可能跟市场、跟社会跟经济关系一个商业运作……它不是说我们要多少就是多少，社会有一个标准。按照这个标准……目前为止只能这样做。为什么说只能这样做呢，因为将来的画的价值是不一样的，比如说梵高、毕加索的东西，现在都是上亿，几千万。那如果以这个价格跟画廊合作，画廊说是要对开分的话那艺术家好像很亏我感到。因为时代不一样了，一张画十年前二十年前，一个世纪之前和今天他的本身不一样了，画的价值不一样了。画廊本身的运作也不一样了。所以只能说当下的画廊和当下的作品这样做还是合理的。
MC: Do you find it agreeable to share your money with your gallerist?
L: Of course to divide it in half. I think it’s mainly decided by the market, the society, economic relationships and commercial operations. We can not ask for what we want at our will. It has to be in accordance with the social standard.
D: Do you think it’s reasonable?
L: Well, that’s what we can do at the moment according to the standard because the value of paintings will be different in the future. For example, van gogh’s and Picasso’s paintings were worthless at the time they were alive, but now, their works are worth hundreds of millions. If an artist is to collaborate with a gallery in agreement on sharing such an extremely high income, he will think it’s quite unfair. The times has changed, paintings and their values from decades ago has changed, and so have the operation of the galleries. So we can just conclude that at present, dividing the income in half between the artist and the gallerist is still reasonable.

MC：你卖掉一幅作品后，是否会想念它？总是知道它的去向吗？
L：好的作品我会这样。当然艺术家都感到每张作品都很好。
D：你会想念它？
L：特别是我印象比较深的或者对我很重要的作品或者有很多故事的作品。
D：你没有发生过你想念它的时候你就上飞机去看它吗？
L：我想看也看不到。前段时间北京拍卖我以前的一张画叫“天堂”。
D：是哪一幅？
L：就是有两个人，一个是我的母亲和我的父亲，后头有两个光圈。那张画有我的故事，我的父母不在了，我怀念他们，画的这样一张画。这张画莫名其妙的就跑到别人手里去了。然后在拍卖的时候，***51：28向我提供这个消息，后来他离开了。我希望他能够拍回来，至少放到画廊我还能够看一看。但后来他不在，所以这张画就不晓得拍在谁那了。我也没有去问，我很怀念着一张画，因为画的我父母。而且这张画我觉得也挺好，就像那简短的文章说我用了很多的元素，比如说宗教元素，其实说是宗教元素还不如说是中国传统的……当然它和宗教也都有些一样。语汇也是既有西方的又有民族的搞在一起。特别是我想我的父母那么年轻的时候，他们很漂亮，我想看看。所以我很怀念“天堂”。但是我不知道。
MC: After you sold your art, do you miss it? Do you know where it is? Always?
Ｌ：Actually, I miss many of the works I have sold because artists always think their works are quite good.
D: Will you miss them?
L: I miss those works which have a strong impression on me , those that are important to me , and those with lots of stories.
D: Have you ever flown to somewhere just to take a look at it?
L: Actually there was such a story. A period a time ago, one of my works called Paradise was being auctioned in Beijing.
D: Which one?
L: The one with two people in it, my mother and my father. And there are two halos behind them.
D: Oh, that one.
L: That painting carries a story of mine. My parents are gone and I miss them, so I just painted this painting. And this painting fell into other’s hands without my knowledge. I was informed of the news by the notary office during the auction. The person who had my painting left. I hope he can bring it back, or at least put it on display in the art gallery so that I can take a look at it from time to time. But he left, and in no way could I find out to whom the painting was auctioned off. The painting is really very good. It’s like a short article, involving a lot of religious, or rather, Chinese traditional elements. It has something in common with religion. And the painting technique used in the painting, namely painting with feathers, is a mix-up of both Chinese and western cultures. My parents were very good-looking when they were young, so I really would like to see them.
D: O.K. Now we’ve reached our final question, or more specifically, a quote. You pick one and read to us.

D：最后的一个也不算问题了，是一个说法吧，你选一个，然后说一下你的看法。
创造力起源于自发性和局限性之间的矛盾，局限性（有如河流的两岸）逼使自发性形成各种对于艺术品或诗歌十分必要的形式。
——罗洛？梅
局限性和自发性的一种撞击是创作的体验。这个局限性就是指艺术形式本身还是创作过程？我感觉好像更多的问题体现在创作过程当中。
D：那你就怎么看这样的一个说法？
L：我在理解这个问题的时候，局限性和自发性之间可能在一个创作过程当中变得很突出，但是创作的起源还是来自于思考，还是一种欲望的东西。我想干什么。然后有了欲望之后，创作开始的时候，会遇到这些问题，遇到这样的问题会产生什么样的问题呢？会产生的不是关键的问题，会产生的是语言样式上的一种冲突。是语言上有很多问题，我是这样理解的。
Creativity arises out of the tension between spontaneity and limitations, the latter (like the river banks) forcing the spontaneity into the various forms which are essential to the work of art or poem.
—Rollo May
L: Does limitation refer more to art forms or the process of creation? I personally think that more issues are reflected in the process of creation.
D: Then what’s your opinion on such a quote? Or you can just find fault with this saying and point out the mistakes.
L: Could you read it for me so that I can get a deeper impression?
D: Creativity arises out of the tension between spontaneity and limitations, the latter (like the river banks) forcing the spontaneity into the various forms which are essential to the work of art or poem.
L: Based on my understanding, I think the quote “ creativity arises out of the tension between spontaneity and limitation” will stand out in the process of creation. But I think the origin of creation comes from thinking. It is a desire, like a desire to do something. At the beginning of creation, an artist will run into these problems. Such problems will lead to further problems of conflicts in terms of language patterns, rather than something notional. There will be some language problems, I guess.

Language: English In Other Languages:

Related Artist: